Prakhar and David talk about his academic enterprise into the esoteric, his course reincarnation and technology, psychedelics, meditations, quantum physics, philosophy , educational philosophy and religion.
David Kittay is Adjunct Assistant Professor at Columbia University. Dr. Kittay specializes in teaching courses on Buddhism and on Eastern and Western philosophy, most recently, “Technology, Religion, Future,” “Interpreting Buddhist Yoga,” "Law and Religion," and "Reincarnation, Simulation, Resurrection." He is the translator of The Vajra Rosary Tantra (Wisdom Publications, forthcoming 2019), Alaṃkakalaśa’s word commentary on the Vajra Rosary Tantra, and, with Professor Lozang Jamspal, Pha Dampa Sangs rgyas's One Hundred Spiritual Instructions to the Dingri People (Ladakh Ratnashridipika Press, 2011), the Elucidation of the Intention Tantra, The Questions of the Four Goddesses Tantra and Tsong Khapa's commentary on it, The Vajra Intuition Compendium Tantra, with Tsong Khapa's commentary, and the Later Tantra (these being the first complete English translations of the Explanatory Tantras of the Guhyasamāja under the Noble Tradition, and (under a grant from 84000,Translating the Words of the Buddha) The Symphony of Dharma Sūtra, along with other publications about Buddhism, religion, and law. He regularly lectures at Tibet House US, where he serves on the Board, and at Do Ngak Kunphen Ling Tibetan Buddhist Center, at Columbia, and worldwide, and is the President of the Tibetan Classics Translators Guild of New York. He also writes and lectures on the subject of compassionate lawyering, and has served as a trial and civil rights lawyer, federal bankruptcy trustee and a receiver for the Securities Exchange Commission. He is currently Director and Professor of Philosophy at the Harlem Clemente Course for the Humanities, teaching humanities to economically disadvantaged people in Harlem.
Dr. Kittay's current primary research interests are Buddhist philosophy and tantra, hermeneutic yoga, and consciousness studies.
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[inaudible].
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All right, professor, good to thank
you so much for doing this. I um,
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for people who do not know,
professor [inaudible], um,
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I'm going to append the entire length of
his introduction in the show notes and
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you can read up on that, but it is,
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if I had to summarize professor
[inaudible] in one line,
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as far as me as a point of reference goes,
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I've been trying to have this
conversation for a good amount of
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the last half year, so I'm, I'm
glad I can finally make this happen.
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Thank you so much. It's good to be
here. It's good to see. You know,
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it's good to see you. Professor,
I was wondering, how's online,
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how's online teaching going for
you? I like teaching is okay. Yeah.
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One thing that I really like about
it is that, well first of all,
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when I teach a seminar and I have big
seminars, you know, maybe 40, 50 people,
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it's great because on two
screens I can see everybody.
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No, if you're in a class live and you're
walking around, you look at one person,
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you look at another person,
right? But with zoom,
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you can see 25 on one
screen, switch, CSC 25.
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The other great thing about it is that a,
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except when people use the
artificial backgrounds,
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it's really wonderful to go into
everyone's home [inaudible] with them.
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Right. [inaudible] it has a sense of uh,
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intimacy and connection that
actually real life doesn't have.
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Of course real life has some other ones.
Hotline doesn't have to. Right. Right.
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So it is almost as if,
um, you are blame you,
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you are seeing the university
to be an artifice of connection.
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Instead if the university is removed,
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that is more of a connection possible
cause you're actually visiting the core
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territory of each individual that you're
teaching. Yeah. And there, you know,
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and sometimes the via a baby crying in
the background or they'll talk about
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their parents, you know, or,
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or there'll be with friends and you can
say hello to their friends or a cat will
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jump up on someone's shoulder.
It's arthritis. I'm curious though,
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having taken a class with you myself,
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if the students find that they're missing
something out in the physical absence
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of your, um, very articulate self,
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you have a way of telling stories
that is very unique. That is,
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that is an element that makes
me want to wait and I am off.
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The more enthusiastic variety of people,
patients does not come naturally to me.
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I wonder if the students find
that they're missing something.
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Have they said something to you
about that? No, although, you know,
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I've also been doing um,
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meditation guided meditations with,
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with my students really directed
toward handling the current situation.
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And, uh, and you know, that's been a
very nice way to connect. Also haven't,
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I mean I miss, I miss my students.
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I miss seeing them. I miss
uh, sitting with them. Right.
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But you know, this is what life
has given us right now. [inaudible]
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in a sense,
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we're very lucky because had
this happened 20 years ago,
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uh, well we might've been able to
call up on the phone long distance
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or 30 or 40 or 50 years
ago. Maybe nothing.
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[inaudible] you know,
so, alright. If you can,
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if you can handle a lot of zoom, right,
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a lot of face time and
a lot of house party.
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Um, it, it's a nice way
to connect also, right?
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I mean it's,
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your class happens to be
one of my favorite classes
and you will know very well
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that I am not the only one
who would ever say that.
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That is enough people I
have read feedback from,
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I've taken feedback from about your class
and all of them tend to say that this
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is one class that you do not want to
miss at Columbia. If I was to rate,
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if I was to rate my experience at
Columbia and break the elements into sub
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elements and then talk about
which was the most, um,
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let's say the most alive
I had felt in a classroom,
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the most connected to
something that integral that
I'd felt in the classroom was
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the play that you invoke as
a, as a function of probably
just your personality.
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Because the subject matter that we're
discussing, reincarnation is not,
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is not something that you
played with, right? It's,
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it's more far more serious than that.
But as a function of your personality,
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as a function of the structure of the
class, it involves a sense of play,
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a sense of abstraction, a sense of
speculation, a sense of going beyond.
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Right. Um, and I,
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I feel like that is something to be said
about having play physically proximate
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to you and having played virtually,
you know, uh, distant from you.
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And so if I was a student in your
class, if I was a student in your class,
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I would not probably be the
happiest about zoom. Uh,
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I cannot say that for all of
my other classes though. Well,
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that's where she made, you know
what the thing is that, uh,
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I think we can use this technology, uh,
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for greater connection. So, so now in, uh,
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in my courses,
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I'm having a lot of one-on-one and in
some smaller groups where we have no three
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or four or five of us [inaudible] and
always every class starts really with a
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check-in. Where are you? How are you? Mmm.
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When I give bigger, when
I give bigger lectures,
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like at Tibet house or a or the other
monasteries and Buddhist places around
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town, I always like to start by
saying, okay, everybody, you know,
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when it's physical, when we're physically
present, let's greet each other,
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turn to your neighbors,
introduce yourself.
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Right. [inaudible] and so I think the,
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the key two
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creating a comfortable environment is
really making it about the students.
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Okay. Because,
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because the student in a seminar, which
I love, I really don't like to lecture,
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but in a seminar we have enormous,
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not only collective
intelligence with all of you,
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but collective emotion, collective love.
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I mean you have,
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you have a group of very
smart people in there,
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early twenties or late teens full of
life and you or the next generation.
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It is your generation who will
change the world and change humanity.
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So that because my classes deal with very
often with technology and the present
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in the future, even if we all so deal
with reincarnation, that's et cetera,
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which also is about the
future that really comes down,
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that really comes down to all of you. So,
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so the a,
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I've always been enormously impressed
by what happened when you can create a
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positive, safe,
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friendly environment and then
you see amazing things happen.
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You know, you know, you
know, these days, uh,
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these days, you know, you turn on the
television, you look at the internet,
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whatever it is, and there's a lot of, uh,
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a lot of negativity and of course a lot
of wonderful things you see happening
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too. But I've always been, uh,
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really impressed by the contrast between
the news and what we experience when we
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actually are out with people. Hm.
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If you and I let growing up in New
York, you know, the two big, uh,
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popular papers, uh, not
for the intellectuals.
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We're the New York post
and the daily news.
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And I used to think of them
and call them crime news.
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Basically. Most of the stories
were about crimes that happened.
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But,
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but you and I know that 99%
of the people that you meet,
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even if you don't know them, even if
you were walking down the street in a,
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in a strange city, if you needed it, we'd
give you the shirt off of their back.
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You know?
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So if we create conditions
where people can do that,
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either in a classroom with students or
any kind of group or living situation,
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I think the results, uh, are,
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are amazing and wonderful. Right?
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But you're not, so I absolutely,
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completely to the agree
with what you said. In fact,
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I've experienced what you've just
spoken about being in your class.
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And I've experienced people giving
personal accounts about their lives that I
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would expect the visa,
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the ability to come in places that are
constructed for one, that ability, right?
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Which is absolutely not
what the university,
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as an institution in dense university,
it does not that it devalues emotion,
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it just values and logic and
reason and, and, and, you know,
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the sciences and all of that.
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A lot more what you stand separated in
your adventure in your enterprise for
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this class, where you seem
to value the emotional space,
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the space of vulnerability
a lot more as well. I'm,
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I wonder why that happens
to be the case. Why do you,
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what do you invest yourself in that
direction given that the university is
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absolutely oriented in a
different fashion? Well,
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I came to teaching after many
years doing a lot of other things.
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Um,
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although I was always drawn to Buddhist
teachings starting when I was really
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about 15 years old. Mmm. You know,
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I then really went into the world and, uh,
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I was a lawyer.
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I helped really tens of thousands of
people get through difficult financial
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circumstances. And I always,
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and I always loved just
the personal interaction,
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uh, with, with each of them or, you know,
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maybe it has to do with just,
just the way I was made, you know,
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maybe karma, my parents, who knows. But,
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uh,
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but to me the sense of personal connection
and a [inaudible] and giving people
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the space to express themselves,
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that kind of safer space. It just really,
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it comes naturally. You
know, and then when I,
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then when I found at some point
the writings of Palo Frereian,
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the great Brazilian revolutionary well
critiqued where he called the banking
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method of education,
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where the teacher dispenses knowledge,
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like deposits in the students,
passively receive the knowledge,
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the teacher is active, the students
are passive. And all of that.
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When I read that, it really
struck a chord in me. Mmm.
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Because of course, right, what we
need is a collective enterprise.
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And you know, [inaudible]
I'd say that. Uh,
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and I teach that way also.
I have a program that, uh,
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then I started, uh, uptown, uh,
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and in Harlem for people
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who otherwise couldn't have
this kind of of education.
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And so, so when I started at about
seven or eight years ago, uh,
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I only looked for
professors who could teach.
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I had some very prominent
people, heads of departments,
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a want to teach and even volunteer.
But when I spoke to them,
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they seemed kind of
impersonal and caught up in a,
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and something else. I really
look for people who could teach.
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And what I find is that this kind of
collective sharing effervescence and
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intelligence works exactly
the same with folks who,
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some of whom never even finished
high school and got a GED.
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We've been through all kinds of struggles,
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but it works exactly the same
way there as it does at Columbia.
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I'll give you, I'll give you
an example. Um, one thing that,
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uh, I like to do more of at
Columbia, I used to do it when, uh,
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when I taught CC, uh, is we'll have, uh,
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close readings of texts
and yeah, we did it.
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I think we did it with Heidegger.
Maybe in your class, you know,
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we'll take a text, you know,
maybe content Heidegger,
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something difficult. And, uh, I did
the same things up in Harlem too.
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And,
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and we go sit in a circle and each person
reads one sentence and we don't go to
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the next sentence until everyone
understands what the author was saying.
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It's not a forum really for discussion.
It's just so, okay. What was he,
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was she saying?
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And what I find is that
whether at least personally,
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whether I'm doing this with
Columbia students, uh, you know,
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so gifted with so many expertise is,
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would be an economics or physics or
you know, lit crit, whatever it is,
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or whether I'm doing it with
folks who have spent their,
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their whole lives just trying to get
by, some of whom have been in prison,
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et cetera, homeless. The
experience is the same.
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And, and, and no matter what the group,
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I find myself learning
so much in doing that.
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So I think the collective intelligence,
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uh, is,
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is an incredible resource that
we have on this planet. Yeah.
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And it's just a question of trying
to figure out how to tap it. Right.
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And I hope to focus it.
215
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I would still maintain because you've
collected forces like the markets that you
216
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know, but um, yes,
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absolutely. And the focus
would be to your credit,
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but before we moved to square one,
before we moved to square one,
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and I ask you how you even ended
up [inaudible] from, from your, um,
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let's say enterprise as a lawyer
to your enterprise as an educator.
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How that happened. I want to plug
in one more question on square Zito,
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which is has as a matter
of this conversation become
your teaching method and
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another interesting thing that would
happen in your classroom which is very,
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very different from what would happen
in most classrooms is the open-endedness
225
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where you would say something
very akin to what you just said,
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which was who's to know is it karma?
Is it my parents? Who's to know?
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And that is just not the attribute.
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Often academician except
for if you're in physics,
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if you're teaching physics and that is
you know that space where you just do not
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understand why dark matter exists.
That is almost no other place.
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I study psychology for that matter
and we tried to define human dynamic
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psychological systems with
simple cause and effect
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[inaudible]. Most of them
have a replication crisis.
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Most of them do not work or
like admissions, not that yet.
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Still they are so confident when they
express the fact that this is it.
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That is an open ended doesn't this is
cognitive dissonance and that is the end
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00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:08,490
of the story. How is it that a teaching
model is sustainable with so many,
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who still knows? Well,
239
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you know, [inaudible]
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in Zen, they talk about
Zen mind, beginner's mind,
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and, and I've always been struck.
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00:16:25,060 --> 00:16:28,210
Bye. Uh, why, what Erwin Schrodinger,
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one of the founders of quantum
physics said when he said that the,
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Mmm. Any,
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any field of human knowledge or expertise
means nothing unless it's combined
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with all the other
fields of knowledge. Mmm.
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And I've always been struck, and this
is why I teach a course in hermeneutics
248
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[inaudible] interpretation. The
science of interpretation that's right,
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um, is to how
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we humans, uh, put blinders on.
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And we see things in such a specific
way, depending on our culture,
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on our class, on our gender, and,
253
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and these limitations are
biological. As humans.
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We only see it a small sliver
of what's out there visually or,
255
00:17:22,170 --> 00:17:26,850
or hearing, you know, we only
see very little culturally,
256
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alright, intellectually [inaudible]
257
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and that, uh,
258
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the first therefore lesson in becoming
a person who is aware and in touch
259
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[inaudible]
260
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,660
try to lift those blinders.
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I call this getting lost. So, uh,
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many in many of my classes,
263
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the real agenda is first to get lost,
264
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to have us question our own
assumptions that we never look at.
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And that famous David Foster
Wallace, uh, commencement speech,
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a commencement speech where one
fish, two fishers swimming along,
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and one fish says to the other, how's
the water? And the other fish says,
268
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what water? Well, that's us.
You know, that, that that is us.
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So a good deal of this
open-endedness, uh, is,
270
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is really, uh,
271
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intended to have us be able to widen,
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00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,290
uh, our view. And if we widen our view,
273
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given the enormous creativity
that all of us have,
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we widen our view, then we can think
out of the box. And not only that,
275
00:18:42,930 --> 00:18:44,850
then we can connect
with each other better.
276
00:18:45,370 --> 00:18:50,370
We have less preconceptions that
limit our thinking and emoting.
277
00:18:51,130 --> 00:18:55,720
Hmm. Both. So, so that's why,
278
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uh, so that's why the class is
more open to end it. And, and,
279
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:05,030
and it actually has read it resonance
when I started or reading physics,
280
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of course, it has a resonance with
quantum mechanics and quantum physics,
281
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which basically [inaudible] I still
age that things only exist when they're
282
00:19:17,250 --> 00:19:19,420
measured. Hmm. Right.
283
00:19:19,420 --> 00:19:23,660
That's the so-called measurement
problem of quantum mechanics. But this,
284
00:19:24,020 --> 00:19:28,510
this read downs so completely
with our ordinary experience,
285
00:19:28,510 --> 00:19:30,850
you know, that if you're in a bed,
286
00:19:30,970 --> 00:19:33,580
the mood and you look
at something that or,
287
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,550
or something someone said and you
interpreted in a certain way. Right.
288
00:19:38,670 --> 00:19:39,970
So in a way,
289
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:45,000
quantum mechanics is hermeneutics
to the Anth scientific degree.
290
00:19:46,530 --> 00:19:48,390
So you asked me how I,
291
00:19:48,420 --> 00:19:52,110
how I got to do this or we were one yet.
292
00:19:52,620 --> 00:19:53,580
We had squad one yet.
293
00:19:53,580 --> 00:19:57,930
So how is it that a man hardened by
logical principles of law entertaining
294
00:19:57,930 --> 00:20:01,470
something so open ended as
an academician? Yeah. Well,
295
00:20:01,990 --> 00:20:05,860
I think when I was a lawyer, I had a
reputation of being somewhat of a terror.
296
00:20:06,730 --> 00:20:08,880
I was a litigation lawyer. I would,
297
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:14,480
I would come upon a situation
and Sue people and the,
298
00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:20,680
and whatnot, I guess you could
say it wasn't very Buddhist. Oh.
299
00:20:21,670 --> 00:20:25,630
So yeah. What happened with me was I, uh,
300
00:20:26,740 --> 00:20:29,830
when I was about 15, somehow, uh,
301
00:20:29,860 --> 00:20:34,860
I got a hold of a book by D T Suzuki
called essays in Zen Buddhism.
302
00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:41,070
And, uh, you know, this was back,
you know, this was in the, yeah,
303
00:20:41,070 --> 00:20:45,640
this is in that time, you know, I'm a
boomer, so it was back in the, you know,
304
00:20:45,650 --> 00:20:50,200
sixties, seventies. Now I'm
older than I look. So, uh,
305
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,900
[inaudible]. And so I was reading
the introduction to that book,
306
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:59,080
and he talks about when you
fall in love for the first time,
307
00:20:59,420 --> 00:21:03,710
your ego feels a split in itself because
you found somebody other than yourself
308
00:21:03,710 --> 00:21:07,740
that you actually care for.
Right. And all man, that, that,
309
00:21:07,890 --> 00:21:12,760
that got me as I was, you know, 15, 16
years old, I was very romantic. I said,
310
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,450
wow, you know, in that grade. And
so then I went and read Alan Watts,
311
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,330
the way of Zin, and then I
was off to the races. And,
312
00:21:19,950 --> 00:21:23,520
and when the Tibetans first
started coming here, I, uh,
313
00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:28,640
I used to hitchhike up to a place
in [inaudible], Northern Vermont,
314
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,520
which at that time was
called tail of the tiger.
315
00:21:32,110 --> 00:21:36,030
It's now called karma Choling
and that's where Chogyam Trungpa,
316
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,250
who was one of the first
Tibetans to come here, uh, was,
317
00:21:40,250 --> 00:21:44,280
and when I got up there, there
were, Oh, there were maybe,
318
00:21:45,290 --> 00:21:47,560
I don't know, seven or
eight or nine people. No,
319
00:21:47,570 --> 00:21:52,110
he went on to become very well known
in some ways a little infamous,
320
00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:56,260
but at that time it was hardly
anybody there. So, uh, yeah,
321
00:21:56,260 --> 00:21:58,510
that's how I started meditating and,
322
00:21:58,890 --> 00:22:02,910
and then speaking with him and learning
about the Tibetan approach to things.
323
00:22:02,910 --> 00:22:07,400
And then, uh, that continued,
324
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,500
I became interested in Sufism.
325
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:12,800
I remember when I was at, uh,
326
00:22:12,860 --> 00:22:17,320
at [inaudible] tell the tiger there
was one other guy there. He was, ah,
327
00:22:17,940 --> 00:22:22,570
his name was Shri and sing.
I wonder where he is today.
328
00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:26,980
But he was a real [inaudible]
and he may be, that'd be great.
329
00:22:27,070 --> 00:22:28,390
And he used to say to me,
330
00:22:29,230 --> 00:22:33,760
are you interested in the esoteric like
that, you know, in a very singsong way.
331
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,690
I just thought it was great. So
anyway, so then I, when I meditate,
332
00:22:37,690 --> 00:22:41,590
I became a Sufi, I studied
with a peer of Elias,
333
00:22:41,610 --> 00:22:46,210
I went to mosques. And in the
middle East and whatnot, uh,
334
00:22:46,810 --> 00:22:48,060
which at that time, you know,
335
00:22:48,060 --> 00:22:53,020
that was a different time and then
American could go. It was okay. Um,
336
00:22:53,050 --> 00:22:54,310
then I came back.
337
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,530
I have to traveling around
the world for, you know,
338
00:22:59,530 --> 00:23:03,100
a long period of time, spending no
money, living really close to the land.
339
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:08,320
I came back and, uh,
and I felt that my, my,
340
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,200
uh, my spiritual practice
was too superficial. Hmm.
341
00:23:12,500 --> 00:23:17,420
I could sit and meditate and just
as soon as I did it, I might,
342
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,340
space would expand. You
know, it was extraordinary,
343
00:23:21,660 --> 00:23:25,930
but I felt I didn't know enough,
so I felt that I should, uh,
344
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,840
become more incarnated.
Hmm. Why'd you say mold?
345
00:23:30,850 --> 00:23:35,430
Incarnated more incarnated? I felt like
I was just, yeah, as a 20 year old kid,
346
00:23:35,850 --> 00:23:39,300
22, 23, however old I was, 22,
347
00:23:39,710 --> 00:23:43,560
I didn't know anything. And so
I had this spiritual practice,
348
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,140
which was wonderful, but I felt
what good is it? You know, how,
349
00:23:47,140 --> 00:23:51,170
how deep could it be if I don't
really know about the world? Right.
350
00:23:51,690 --> 00:23:56,330
So I decided I should become more
incarnate. So how should I do that?
351
00:23:56,750 --> 00:24:01,450
Maybe I've become a craft
person. Uh, unfortunately, uh,
352
00:24:01,450 --> 00:24:05,680
if I did that, I probably would've
starved because it's not my talent.
353
00:24:06,430 --> 00:24:09,860
So, but I did have a way with words.
354
00:24:09,950 --> 00:24:14,870
So I took the advice of a, actually a, a,
355
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,090
I am a woman, an anthropologist actually,
356
00:24:19,090 --> 00:24:21,160
her name was Zakiah Aguilar,
357
00:24:21,910 --> 00:24:24,910
and she was the first woman,
358
00:24:24,910 --> 00:24:29,910
first woman or anthropologist of any
kind to go into the villages in India and
359
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:35,920
interview women. Hmm.
Standpoint of anthropology.
360
00:24:36,370 --> 00:24:41,140
And she, she used to tutor
me in Russian and Turkish.
361
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,630
I used to meet with her and she had
said to me when we were doing that,
362
00:24:45,630 --> 00:24:48,980
when I was in college, uh,
you should become a lawyer.
363
00:24:49,530 --> 00:24:53,940
And so then as I was thinking, what should
I do? It came back to me and I said,
364
00:24:53,940 --> 00:24:57,420
okay, I'll become a lawyer. I will
become more incarnate. So I did that.
365
00:24:57,930 --> 00:25:02,480
I went to law school, I
met a girl in the library.
366
00:25:02,980 --> 00:25:06,680
We looked at each other,
we got married. Uh,
367
00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:10,240
very soon after that, you know,
368
00:25:10,470 --> 00:25:14,760
after a while we had some kids. I became
a lawyer and I got really incarnated,
369
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,770
you know, I really, I was there,
Mmm. Very much in the world.
370
00:25:20,330 --> 00:25:25,220
And then at some point, after
a couple of decades doing that,
371
00:25:25,220 --> 00:25:27,320
I said, okay, I become a
Carnegie. And now what?
372
00:25:28,180 --> 00:25:31,640
So I send an email to Bob Thurman,
373
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,760
or I didn't know who taught
courses in Buddhism at Columbia.
374
00:25:36,940 --> 00:25:40,660
And I said, I want to know what the
Tibetans know, if they know anything.
375
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,610
And he said, well, let me
send you to a Lozan John Paul,
376
00:25:46,670 --> 00:25:51,470
who was a, a Tibetan, a LA
docie Tibet. I'm from India.
377
00:25:52,220 --> 00:25:57,060
Uh Oh, who was teaching classical
Tibetan at the time at Columbia.
378
00:25:57,630 --> 00:26:02,630
And so I went to him and we started
translating together immediately after he
379
00:26:02,820 --> 00:26:07,210
taught me the alphabet. And that was maybe
380
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,930
25 years ago. And since then, he and I,
381
00:26:12,990 --> 00:26:16,840
he's now almost 90 [inaudible].
He's in Thailand now,
382
00:26:17,010 --> 00:26:20,750
but via technology since then. Uh,
383
00:26:20,780 --> 00:26:22,160
he and I have been,
384
00:26:22,660 --> 00:26:27,580
I've been translating every
week for all those years.
385
00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:32,310
Oh, sorry about that. Please. Please
take it. So I guess that's I, so anyways,
386
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:36,930
so yeah, John Swan. And then, and then
after awhile I said to Thurman, I said,
387
00:26:36,930 --> 00:26:40,070
well, you know, should I become
a monk? Which I do. You know,
388
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:43,730
I wasn't really seriously considering
that, but, and he said, well, you know,
389
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:44,593
for me
390
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,040
the university's like a
monastery. [inaudible] right.
391
00:26:48,130 --> 00:26:52,110
So I somehow applied to Columbia
even though I was, you know,
392
00:26:52,110 --> 00:26:55,440
older didn't have much Brown.
393
00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:59,680
Somehow I got in the PhD program and
they just have never been able to get rid
394
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:00,513
of me.
395
00:27:02,710 --> 00:27:06,970
You know what the phone call I served as
like a break in the simulation cause I
396
00:27:06,970 --> 00:27:11,560
was so lost in the story that you
were telling. And I mean, I think,
397
00:27:11,620 --> 00:27:15,820
I think I almost lost sight of what
question I wanted to ask you next.
398
00:27:15,820 --> 00:27:19,870
But I do remember, I do
remember now question is what,
399
00:27:20,270 --> 00:27:20,840
at 15,
400
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,840
you find you found Suzuki and Watts and
after all these years of ups and downs
401
00:27:26,620 --> 00:27:30,220
through incarnation and the
pendulum swing, do do um,
402
00:27:30,730 --> 00:27:34,930
[inaudible] like lifestyle again
to Tibetan Buddhism, to Sufism.
403
00:27:35,230 --> 00:27:39,040
What is it that you've been trying to
find? What is, what does this reach for?
404
00:27:39,420 --> 00:27:41,970
What are we getting at? To me, uh,
405
00:27:44,430 --> 00:27:48,190
uh, the heart and,
406
00:27:49,270 --> 00:27:53,210
and the mind. Oh, really? The same.
407
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:59,470
And so I've always wanted
to understand what this was.
408
00:28:02,340 --> 00:28:05,820
No, I think in high school they
voted me class philosopher, you know,
409
00:28:05,820 --> 00:28:10,440
some people have that
disease. I agree. Yeah. And,
410
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:14,280
and you know, w you know, what is it?
I think it, I think it's just the way,
411
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,450
just the way I'm constructed, you know,
412
00:28:16,450 --> 00:28:21,300
maybe [inaudible] could be some
kind of karma, you know, maybe not,
413
00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:25,050
it doesn't really matter. But, uh,
414
00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:29,160
through using my own self as a laboratory,
415
00:28:29,190 --> 00:28:32,220
dealing with my own shortcomings,
416
00:28:33,070 --> 00:28:37,530
anxieties, fears, and ignorance,
417
00:28:38,690 --> 00:28:43,320
Mmm. I'm fortunate to have
a really good laboratory,
418
00:28:43,610 --> 00:28:47,720
Hmm. With, with all of these
problems and dealing with life.
419
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:48,890
And I think to myself,
420
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:55,000
how can we break through
this to understand this very
strange human predicament
421
00:28:57,410 --> 00:29:01,910
that we find ourselves
in? And, and you know,
422
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,770
uh, there's nothing like a pandemic
to focus you on the human predicament.
423
00:29:08,130 --> 00:29:10,140
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's, um,
424
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,530
I was reading a post about how you all
accepted a simpler life and we have
425
00:29:13,530 --> 00:29:17,130
stopped asking for more, given a
predicament in the present moment. And it,
426
00:29:17,130 --> 00:29:20,250
it's a Testament to the fact that
even if this is not sustainable,
427
00:29:20,250 --> 00:29:23,010
it's imaginable. It's
possible. And so, you know,
428
00:29:23,010 --> 00:29:24,600
that's a good place to begin inquiring.
429
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:28,950
And I agree with the fact that some
people just have the bug off philosophy.
430
00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:30,640
It's almost like on the scale of problems,
431
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,930
some people consider life to be the
primary problem they want to resolve in
432
00:29:33,930 --> 00:29:37,410
their head before they want to move on
to the smaller or the bigger. And, um,
433
00:29:37,620 --> 00:29:42,400
at least that is the case for me.
But I'm, I'm curious as to how,
434
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,890
um, a philosopher ends up talking,
435
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,110
talking or even wondering
about reincarnation.
436
00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:50,500
Why is the reincarnation
such an interesting theme
to somebody who does not?
437
00:29:50,860 --> 00:29:54,490
And forgive me for saying that
culturally belong to the discourse around
438
00:29:54,610 --> 00:29:55,443
reincarnation.
439
00:29:57,410 --> 00:30:00,810
Well, it goes like this
440
00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:05,590
when I was in college and uh,
441
00:30:06,860 --> 00:30:07,620
okay.
442
00:30:07,620 --> 00:30:10,080
And it was very early in
the morning, I was sleeping
443
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:12,033
and
444
00:30:12,530 --> 00:30:16,210
I woke up with a vision or dream.
445
00:30:17,330 --> 00:30:18,163
Yeah. And,
446
00:30:19,070 --> 00:30:22,160
and in the dream. And it
was, it was not just a dream.
447
00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:27,480
It was extraordinary. I woke up
and I went, what just happened?
448
00:30:27,900 --> 00:30:31,320
I was going up the Oxys river
449
00:30:31,750 --> 00:30:32,583
in winter.
450
00:30:33,670 --> 00:30:38,460
I was wearing furs around my,
451
00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:42,850
around my head, and then to the East,
452
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,570
the sun Rose from behind a mountain
and illuminated everything.
453
00:30:50,660 --> 00:30:55,040
So this was back before
the internet. I said,
454
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:56,660
what is the Oxys river?
455
00:30:58,060 --> 00:31:00,520
I had never heard of the Oxys river. So
456
00:31:01,730 --> 00:31:03,220
in the dream, the name was clear.
457
00:31:03,350 --> 00:31:08,210
Yeah. Name was clear. Yeah. O
X, U S the Oxys realm. And I,
458
00:31:08,460 --> 00:31:13,460
I looked it up in the dictionary and
found that that was the ancient name for
459
00:31:13,460 --> 00:31:16,850
the river. They now call
the AMO Darya river.
460
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,660
And, uh, and it's, so I,
461
00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:26,660
I knew that the name cretae
my last name [inaudible] Mmm.
462
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,740
Means in Russian because I had
studied Russian means China.
463
00:31:32,770 --> 00:31:35,920
Key Tai means China and also, uh,
464
00:31:36,340 --> 00:31:37,870
in the Slavic languages.
465
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:43,560
And that actually the name Cathay C a
T H a Y when Marco polo went to China,
466
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,320
really is a derivative of
Catan. So I thought to myself,
467
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,430
maybe that is, you know, who knows,
you know, Oxys river cafe, who knows?
468
00:31:54,430 --> 00:31:58,340
I didn't know. I, I didn't know anything
about cafe. Only then it mentioned.
469
00:31:58,340 --> 00:32:01,900
And so I started looking things
up and I found that the cafe,
470
00:32:02,370 --> 00:32:07,370
we're a people who came out of Manchuria
and they're very warlike and they
471
00:32:07,710 --> 00:32:12,240
conquered China, uh, and founded, uh,
472
00:32:12,270 --> 00:32:17,160
Liao dynasty. So it
turned out that the kid,
473
00:32:17,660 --> 00:32:20,770
when we were driven out of China,
474
00:32:20,770 --> 00:32:24,670
fled westward and set up
a kingdom in central Asia,
475
00:32:24,820 --> 00:32:28,430
which they called the kingdom of
the cholera. K a R a [inaudible],
476
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,630
which means in Turkic languages,
477
00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:33,450
either the great SES or
the black [inaudible].
478
00:32:34,380 --> 00:32:39,380
And it turned out that that a kingdom
was on the shores of the AMO Darya river,
479
00:32:41,490 --> 00:32:46,000
the Oxys river. Hmm.
Now it also turned out,
480
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,080
as I researched it,
481
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,800
that Genghis Khan's prime
minister was a man named yellow,
482
00:32:54,180 --> 00:32:58,890
chewed Sy yellow chewed sigh.
It turned out was a cafe,
483
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:00,210
very cultured.
484
00:33:01,090 --> 00:33:05,640
And he convinced Genghis Khan that
rather than slaughtering everyone,
485
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,600
when he capture the city,
486
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:13,100
that he should keep them
alive and tax them. Okay.
487
00:33:13,220 --> 00:33:17,720
And so, uh, so there's a whole
strain of, you know, yeah,
488
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,490
Lou [inaudible] site. But then,
489
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,800
then I had read a book called the,
490
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,210
uh, by Arthur Kessler,
491
00:33:30,250 --> 00:33:34,390
who was a very famous writer
and years gone, gone by,
492
00:33:34,390 --> 00:33:36,310
called the 13th tribe.
493
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,700
Now my family is Jewish
come from coming from,
494
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,740
well, you know, where a lot of
the European Jews come from,
495
00:33:44,740 --> 00:33:49,150
which is a [inaudible], you know, kind
of Poland, Russia, you know, from there.
496
00:33:49,770 --> 00:33:52,710
But in the 13th tribe, Kessler,
497
00:33:53,630 --> 00:33:57,170
he was trying to solve a question
to answer this question. What,
498
00:33:57,260 --> 00:34:01,920
why are they all these Jews
with blue eyes like me? Right,
499
00:34:02,730 --> 00:34:04,380
right. Where they come from. And,
500
00:34:04,570 --> 00:34:08,660
and he theorize that in fact,
501
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,070
they were the descendants
of a Turkic, people
502
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,030
who lived in central Asia, in
the kingdom of the Haas Hazara.
503
00:34:18,980 --> 00:34:21,620
And the Hazo has found themselves.
They were Turkish people,
504
00:34:21,850 --> 00:34:24,550
and they found themselves
with the Moslems on one side,
505
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:26,140
and the Christians on the other side,
506
00:34:26,170 --> 00:34:28,480
and their King wanted
to remain independent.
507
00:34:29,330 --> 00:34:33,650
So he decided that he and all his
people would convert. So Judaism,
508
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,820
Hm. Now it turns out I believed,
509
00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:40,680
uh, that,
510
00:34:41,230 --> 00:34:46,230
that the kingdom of the kitties
and the kingdom of the causers,
511
00:34:48,020 --> 00:34:50,850
we're separated only by the AMO,
512
00:34:50,860 --> 00:34:53,340
Darya ancient name Oxys river.
513
00:34:53,710 --> 00:34:57,450
So what I figured happened
was that long time ago,
514
00:34:57,450 --> 00:35:02,140
my great-great-great-great grandfather's
swam across the river. And,
515
00:35:02,140 --> 00:35:05,200
uh, what's the polite term? And, uh,
516
00:35:05,950 --> 00:35:09,960
and fell in love with my great,
great, great, great grandmother.
517
00:35:10,570 --> 00:35:15,280
The [inaudible] bastard looked
Chinese, so they called it [inaudible].
518
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,310
[inaudible]. Now, now you know,
this is long enough on this,
519
00:35:20,310 --> 00:35:24,300
but [inaudible] by the way, you're
asking me about reincarnation.
520
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,250
So then, so then a few years ago,
521
00:35:28,250 --> 00:35:32,390
I was at a meeting at Tibet
house. Oh, you're frozen again.
522
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,070
Are you still with me? I'm
with you. I'm with you.
523
00:35:34,070 --> 00:35:38,290
And I met [inaudible]
and I met a, a wonderful
524
00:35:38,290 --> 00:35:41,530
woman named Diane Wolf, who turned
out to be a Mongolian scholar.
525
00:35:41,530 --> 00:35:46,530
And it turns out that Diane is leading
authority probably in the world on yellow
526
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,090
[inaudible] sign this kid Tay, who
was Genghis Khan's prime minister.
527
00:35:50,740 --> 00:35:55,680
And then she sent me, uh, just a year ago,
528
00:35:57,060 --> 00:36:02,060
some writings of yellow chewed Sy that
describe him going up the Oxys river in
529
00:36:04,690 --> 00:36:09,510
winter. Huh. So, but
because, you know, but, but,
530
00:36:10,030 --> 00:36:13,390
but going all the way back to that, it,
531
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,740
it was really an extraordinary thing
that I couldn't really account for and it
532
00:36:18,740 --> 00:36:23,740
opened my mind to the possibility
of reincarnation or something else.
533
00:36:25,590 --> 00:36:29,310
And, uh, so always being interested.
Then in Buddhism, of course,
534
00:36:29,340 --> 00:36:34,300
reincarnation is very central. The
Buddhism as well as, you know, a Hinduism.
535
00:36:35,230 --> 00:36:38,520
Mmm. I really, uh,
536
00:36:38,890 --> 00:36:40,540
I became deeply interested in it.
537
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:46,120
And then when I look at technology and I
think about how technology is evolving,
538
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:49,873
Mmm.
539
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,920
And I think about quantum mechanics
and I'm really wondering how all these
540
00:36:55,670 --> 00:36:57,200
things fit together.
541
00:36:57,620 --> 00:37:01,760
I'm a detective in search
of an answer, right.
542
00:37:02,090 --> 00:37:05,750
And I think even not just
academically, even philosophically,
543
00:37:05,750 --> 00:37:10,750
I think it's very bored that this loss
attempts or you attempt to unify all
544
00:37:10,970 --> 00:37:13,850
these, all these disparate otherwise, um,
545
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,210
discontinuous fields of study. So we,
546
00:37:17,540 --> 00:37:20,810
in that last dub started with quantum
physics, religion, philosophy,
547
00:37:20,810 --> 00:37:24,830
eschatology, technology. We did
biology, we did psychedelics,
548
00:37:24,830 --> 00:37:29,330
and we did fringe experiences like Neo
death or end of life experiences and all
549
00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:34,190
of that. But in this, in this
quest to sort of, um, chaise,
550
00:37:34,250 --> 00:37:37,730
the architecture of your dream
out to figure out why that,
551
00:37:37,820 --> 00:37:41,630
that vision ever happened. You
have rightly become a detective.
552
00:37:41,660 --> 00:37:45,420
And I have a question and it's, it's more
of a doubt than a question I figured,
553
00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:47,810
and this was me halfway through
the class last semester,
554
00:37:48,260 --> 00:37:50,270
that it is not just that
you've become a detective,
555
00:37:50,270 --> 00:37:53,420
but this classroom has become an
experiment with sub detectives,
556
00:37:53,780 --> 00:37:57,320
what you've learned or where you're trying
to channelize the creativity of these
557
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,153
young and,
558
00:37:58,390 --> 00:38:03,390
and different minds to bring at least
of workable idea out as to why this
559
00:38:03,980 --> 00:38:05,960
phenomenon might exist,
how it might exist,
560
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,860
how might we even bridge the differences
between how we see the materialistic
561
00:38:09,860 --> 00:38:12,020
world and the spiritually ideal. This,
562
00:38:12,020 --> 00:38:15,020
this other half of the world
that you've had a bite off.
563
00:38:15,350 --> 00:38:20,000
Am I correct in the doubt or is that
me just going too far off? Well, I, I,
564
00:38:20,130 --> 00:38:22,400
I, I appreciate the, you know,
565
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,310
the collective intelligence and
there's no question that, uh,
566
00:38:26,650 --> 00:38:31,650
a group of 35 smart people are more
likely to figure it out then and just one.
567
00:38:33,610 --> 00:38:37,920
No, no, no. But I,
568
00:38:38,940 --> 00:38:39,870
to me, it's not,
569
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,960
not so much result oriented because I
think that the answer could well be that
570
00:38:46,980 --> 00:38:49,020
there's no answer. In other words,
571
00:38:49,020 --> 00:38:52,650
even though I'm a sleuth
in search of an answer,
572
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:57,830
it could well be that there is no
theory of everything. You know,
573
00:38:57,830 --> 00:38:59,820
we have a great, uh,
574
00:38:59,820 --> 00:39:04,820
we have an instinct to have everything
at a everything makes sense.
575
00:39:06,220 --> 00:39:06,420
Okay.
576
00:39:06,420 --> 00:39:11,420
But we also know at a deep
level [inaudible] it doesn't
make sense in so many
577
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,840
ways. You know, this
life Brian and part of,
578
00:39:17,700 --> 00:39:22,140
and part of the exercise in the present
tense is learning to live with that.
579
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,410
And, and I had to, I know that we, we, uh,
580
00:39:27,470 --> 00:39:32,150
receive comfort and,
581
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:38,840
and light and warmth and insight
from doing this together.
582
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,440
And I think the exercise itself,
583
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,290
[inaudible] is worth it.
584
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,590
Even if there is no answer.
585
00:39:51,970 --> 00:39:56,970
And in some ways you could say [inaudible]
it doesn't matter what we're studying
586
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,860
together. You know, it could be,
you know, it could be woodshop,
587
00:40:04,050 --> 00:40:07,320
right? It could be
mathematics. If we're doing it,
588
00:40:07,690 --> 00:40:09,310
if we're doing it together,
589
00:40:09,650 --> 00:40:14,650
then it becomes an experience of love and
intelligence that is the divine in us.
590
00:40:19,580 --> 00:40:22,130
Hmm. That's very well said. Um,
591
00:40:22,370 --> 00:40:24,620
I've always felt that asking,
592
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,920
I don't better asking better questions
is a far more important than having
593
00:40:30,950 --> 00:40:31,940
answers in any case.
594
00:40:31,940 --> 00:40:36,260
And I think part of education should
focus on asking the right, better,
595
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,230
tighter questions than, than,
than you know, giving answers.
596
00:40:39,230 --> 00:40:42,950
It's a lot of it is accepting
the humidity of your limitation,
597
00:40:43,340 --> 00:40:47,120
accepting that there is a certain boundary
that you would probably not want to
598
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:48,530
cross from what I would want to reason.
599
00:40:49,350 --> 00:40:54,350
A lot of it is the open-endedness of
being okay with uncertainty as humans we
600
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,030
are designed for, for assessing
certainty, prediction, you know,
601
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,310
I'm processing all of that
as a certain beat, um,
602
00:41:02,340 --> 00:41:06,600
effecting mechanism that we have.
And I feel uncertainty has a lot,
603
00:41:06,870 --> 00:41:10,320
but being in the present has a lot lot
to do with being okay with uncertainty,
604
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,020
has a lot to do with leaving
a very content and happy life.
605
00:41:13,020 --> 00:41:14,880
And I think this class, um,
606
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,590
in in some sense also tries to enforce
the principles of mindfulness in action.
607
00:41:20,070 --> 00:41:22,980
Not so much in reflection but
in action. Uh, and, you know,
608
00:41:22,980 --> 00:41:26,580
reflective action would be a better
word, but, so, um, I'm glad for that,
609
00:41:26,580 --> 00:41:27,690
but I wonder, uh,
610
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:32,720
how is it that quantum physics
psychedelics fringe experiences biology is
611
00:41:33,380 --> 00:41:34,490
religion scatology
612
00:41:34,490 --> 00:41:35,090
philosophy,
613
00:41:35,090 --> 00:41:39,440
all of them come together and point in
this common direction that that might be
614
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,700
something beyond the material debt
that we imagined to be the full stop.
615
00:41:43,990 --> 00:41:46,490
You are continuous life. [inaudible]
616
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,930
well, I'm so happy that
you're, that you yourself in,
617
00:41:50,990 --> 00:41:52,760
in what you're doing right here,
618
00:41:53,010 --> 00:41:57,310
you're just asking questions
and how wonderful is that?
619
00:41:57,610 --> 00:41:59,260
And so you're a,
620
00:41:59,260 --> 00:42:04,260
you're a living example of exactly
the method because I think when we ask
621
00:42:06,340 --> 00:42:09,190
questions, our minds open up
622
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:11,150
and
623
00:42:11,150 --> 00:42:15,140
our mind and then this space
within our minds expands.
624
00:42:16,090 --> 00:42:20,440
You know, in Buddhism we talk
about the four formless realms,
625
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,180
right beyond the form realm
where we go, infinite space,
626
00:42:25,390 --> 00:42:28,510
infinite consciousness,
infinite nothingness,
627
00:42:28,510 --> 00:42:33,340
and then beyond all of that, Mmm.
628
00:42:33,830 --> 00:42:35,240
So, uh,
629
00:42:36,670 --> 00:42:41,670
this method of asking questions is a
wonderful way for us to purify our minds.
630
00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:43,660
And,
631
00:42:43,660 --> 00:42:47,380
and then once our minds are more pure,
632
00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:51,060
then we can be our highest selves,
even if that's not perfect.
633
00:42:51,060 --> 00:42:53,160
It's our highest selves. So,
634
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,490
so all of these different
elements, you know,
635
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:02,070
psychedelics for example, which, uh,
636
00:43:02,500 --> 00:43:05,430
from time and Memorial so much, you know,
637
00:43:05,430 --> 00:43:08,490
to the Greek Eleusinian
mysteries, you know,
638
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,270
all the way up to the 1960s
on the West coast. You know,
639
00:43:12,270 --> 00:43:17,270
I had been used by people to have
different kinds of experiences.
640
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,840
And so the question is,
what are those experiences?
641
00:43:23,300 --> 00:43:24,260
What do they mean?
642
00:43:24,900 --> 00:43:26,650
Mmm. And now of course,
643
00:43:26,650 --> 00:43:30,130
there's a lot of research that shows
that those kinds of experiences can be of
644
00:43:30,130 --> 00:43:34,320
tremendous, a value to people who are, uh,
645
00:43:34,510 --> 00:43:37,570
suffering from emotional
distress, either end of life,
646
00:43:37,570 --> 00:43:40,900
emotional distress or PTSD.
All of those things. Great.
647
00:43:41,390 --> 00:43:44,810
When wonderful research that's
being doing, being done. And then,
648
00:43:44,990 --> 00:43:49,560
then we look at this phenomenon of, uh,
649
00:43:50,570 --> 00:43:53,900
people having visions of UFOs.
650
00:43:55,130 --> 00:43:58,250
And I think, I don't remember
if you were in this class,
651
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,160
but we had a couple of students who had,
652
00:44:01,530 --> 00:44:06,150
I remembered these experiences from
when they were little girls exactly as
653
00:44:06,150 --> 00:44:10,920
described and some of the literature
that, that we, that we read. And so,
654
00:44:11,070 --> 00:44:16,010
and so what is that? And so
we, we pair that with Mmm.
655
00:44:16,940 --> 00:44:18,560
With Pierre core bonds,
656
00:44:18,590 --> 00:44:22,320
book creative imagination
and the Sufism and Eben,
657
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,620
the RB because he positive and RB,
658
00:44:25,620 --> 00:44:29,550
one of the great Moslem scholar, mystics,
659
00:44:30,090 --> 00:44:34,850
one of the great, great,
uh, people of all time, uh,
660
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,950
what he calls the imaginal realm,
661
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,130
which is not this physical realm and
it's not as separate mental realm,
662
00:44:42,130 --> 00:44:46,790
but it's somewhere in between,
right? So what, what is this?
663
00:44:46,790 --> 00:44:50,840
How do we account for really thousands
of people having these experiences?
664
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,930
What does that tell us about, again,
665
00:44:54,140 --> 00:44:59,140
what happens when we remove our
blinders and then we look at some of the
666
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,870
practices of, of Buddhism, for
example, esoteric Buddhism, where,
667
00:45:05,060 --> 00:45:10,060
where a practitioner will go through
the process of death six times a day.
668
00:45:10,250 --> 00:45:12,220
At least, and,
669
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:17,520
and we wonder as the senses fall away as
we're dying and we're in more and more
670
00:45:20,590 --> 00:45:24,070
subtle consciousnesses at that point,
671
00:45:24,830 --> 00:45:28,610
does this kind of measurement
principle of quantum mechanics,
672
00:45:29,450 --> 00:45:32,270
does this become really effective?
673
00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:38,460
And so could that be a mechanism whereby
some form of continuity takes place?
674
00:45:42,550 --> 00:45:43,383
In other words,
675
00:45:43,750 --> 00:45:48,490
if you have been practicing
intensely for many,
676
00:45:48,490 --> 00:45:49,780
many years,
677
00:45:50,260 --> 00:45:53,500
so that a certain vision and
going through the death process,
678
00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:57,670
you know exactly what it is, could
that manifest itself in a very,
679
00:45:57,670 --> 00:46:02,330
very subtle level? Hmm. And, uh, so,
680
00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:06,920
you know, so we look at that, we look
at science, we look at [inaudible],
681
00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:10,880
we look at psychedelics, we look
at religion, all of these are,
682
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:12,513
uh,
683
00:46:12,930 --> 00:46:17,930
our means to understand
the human condition and
[inaudible] perhaps remove our
684
00:46:20,930 --> 00:46:21,800
blinders,
685
00:46:22,710 --> 00:46:26,190
which will benefit us in the
present tense no matter where,
686
00:46:26,190 --> 00:46:28,710
even if we don't have any answers, right.
687
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,610
And perhaps may lead to a, some kind of,
688
00:46:35,260 --> 00:46:38,320
ah, answer about what
these things are. Hmm.
689
00:46:38,950 --> 00:46:41,910
And so who knows? But, but,
690
00:46:42,490 --> 00:46:46,680
but by looking at the whole thing and,
691
00:46:46,740 --> 00:46:50,160
and that's only best done collectively,
but by looking at the whole thing,
692
00:46:50,250 --> 00:46:54,750
maybe we learn something. Right.
And I mean walking into the class,
693
00:46:55,590 --> 00:46:58,790
considering the number of elements
that we were playing with, that would,
694
00:46:58,790 --> 00:47:02,780
a few elements that I'd made peace with
that did definitely point towards what
695
00:47:02,810 --> 00:47:05,090
the thesis of the course
was reincarnation, right?
696
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,970
Or they might not have
directly pointed towards it,
697
00:47:07,970 --> 00:47:10,340
but they were enough to incite
curiosity along the direction.
698
00:47:10,340 --> 00:47:13,610
So I had experimented with psychedelics
myself and I knew that there was
699
00:47:13,610 --> 00:47:16,310
something happening there that I
could not put into words properly.
700
00:47:16,310 --> 00:47:19,640
That is something that is so
beyond the realm of the material.
701
00:47:19,820 --> 00:47:23,590
To me that putting it in the words that
represent things in the material world
702
00:47:23,590 --> 00:47:26,380
was insufficient. I also
understood the same about religion.
703
00:47:26,380 --> 00:47:29,170
I could excuse religion because I've
always felt that religion can construct
704
00:47:29,230 --> 00:47:30,100
story about anything.
705
00:47:30,130 --> 00:47:32,410
And you know what it's in the
playing field of it's metaphysics.
706
00:47:32,650 --> 00:47:36,170
I don't have a problem with that.
The same with quantum physics.
707
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,020
The hole that remains in quantum
physics. Be that the observation problem,
708
00:47:39,020 --> 00:47:40,340
the measurement problem, all of that.
709
00:47:40,370 --> 00:47:44,080
I understood that that is something
to be filled for this gap. However,
710
00:47:44,110 --> 00:47:48,250
there were a few places that absolutely
astounded me that formed the points of
711
00:47:48,250 --> 00:47:52,790
inflection for let's just say my
conversion, right? The first one was, um,
712
00:47:52,850 --> 00:47:57,850
day one when we went over the many cases
of people who had recounted past lives
713
00:47:58,820 --> 00:48:02,060
and I have been there used with a joke
about this phenomenon all my life.
714
00:48:02,090 --> 00:48:05,420
My grandfather vouchers for the fact that
he's met a few people like that every
715
00:48:05,420 --> 00:48:08,240
now and then, one dramatized
Indian TV channel.
716
00:48:08,270 --> 00:48:11,870
We'll showcase something like that to
get the RP ratings about somebody who can
717
00:48:11,870 --> 00:48:15,710
just recount the way he does because
he was a scholar in his last life or he
718
00:48:15,710 --> 00:48:17,810
knows something about his last
life that he's not supposed to.
719
00:48:18,170 --> 00:48:19,660
But then we were listening to, we would,
720
00:48:19,660 --> 00:48:24,370
we were leaving reports
from more materialist media
sources. NBC news, we were,
721
00:48:24,370 --> 00:48:27,460
we were listening to, we were reading
about new sources from places,
722
00:48:27,460 --> 00:48:32,250
but I'd not expect that to be the case
again when we move forward considering
723
00:48:32,250 --> 00:48:36,510
the materialist Canon to be the proper
place of sense making me bummed across a
724
00:48:36,510 --> 00:48:41,130
Plato's story of earth, something embedded
within the Greek material tradition.
725
00:48:41,250 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaking of reincarnation process,
726
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,170
very akin to what the Buddhist or the
gems or the Hindus were speaking of.
727
00:48:48,530 --> 00:48:51,590
And those were the point,
the points of inflection.
728
00:48:51,590 --> 00:48:53,750
We're not in the domains
that I was comfortable with.
729
00:48:54,210 --> 00:48:58,290
What in the domains that are absolutely
used as evidence to strike down all
730
00:48:58,290 --> 00:49:02,670
claims of reincarnation. This cannot
be, the media would be reporting it.
731
00:49:02,700 --> 00:49:06,690
This cannot be that we're so there is a
proper tradition of literature that says
732
00:49:06,690 --> 00:49:10,920
that there is no life after death but
those two places, what absolutely,
733
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:11,753
you know. Um,
734
00:49:11,790 --> 00:49:16,350
and the third point was in fact finding
out how many people close to me within
735
00:49:16,350 --> 00:49:20,130
that classroom would vouch for
experiences like that themselves near that
736
00:49:20,130 --> 00:49:23,070
experiences, experiences of
end of life, all of that.
737
00:49:23,580 --> 00:49:26,970
And I would walk out of their class
shell shocked everyday and I'd be like,
738
00:49:26,970 --> 00:49:27,570
how is that,
739
00:49:27,570 --> 00:49:31,590
how this change of mind happening at
a pace that I cannot even comprehend?
740
00:49:31,620 --> 00:49:35,800
How do I even begin to make sense of
that? What do you have to say about this,
741
00:49:35,860 --> 00:49:38,860
this particular range
of phenomenon? I, uh,
742
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,990
I share your, Mmm,
743
00:49:42,260 --> 00:49:46,450
in a way, skepticism. And,
you know, I always, my
744
00:49:46,780 --> 00:49:51,120
w w I read Stevenson
Stevenson, so he was a,
745
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,300
actually, it's in the medical
school at university of Virginia,
746
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:59,770
and he did this two volume study on
reincarnation and biology. You know,
747
00:49:59,770 --> 00:50:04,020
he had his team of, of interviewers,
and they hurt with here.
748
00:50:04,020 --> 00:50:06,990
I study a, they would hear
a story about reincarnation.
749
00:50:06,990 --> 00:50:11,530
They'd immediately go and interview
the family and the kid, uh, et cetera,
750
00:50:12,730 --> 00:50:17,000
uh, most, most of which
just about all of which, uh,
751
00:50:17,030 --> 00:50:21,350
took place in cultures where
reincarnation was accepted. So of course,
752
00:50:21,350 --> 00:50:24,620
I thought to myself, okay, fine. You
know, everybody believes in reincarnation,
753
00:50:24,620 --> 00:50:29,020
so it's kind of in the air.
If is really happening,
754
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,750
then it, it, we should find it in
the West too, right? We should.
755
00:50:35,570 --> 00:50:37,970
And, uh, but you know,
what happens when we,
756
00:50:38,450 --> 00:50:43,350
when we dig a little deeper and we
actually create a space where people feel
757
00:50:43,500 --> 00:50:47,700
safe to talk about these things
is they do start to pop up, not,
758
00:50:47,700 --> 00:50:49,320
not with the same frequency.
759
00:50:49,350 --> 00:50:52,230
I think as you find them in
cultures where this is accepted,
760
00:50:53,550 --> 00:50:54,390
what they do,
761
00:50:56,190 --> 00:51:00,450
pop as in that ABC news story about
the kid who remembered being shot down
762
00:51:00,450 --> 00:51:04,470
during the second world war
in a fighter plane. Mmm. But,
763
00:51:05,610 --> 00:51:10,250
you know, I think that there
may be an explanation for that.
764
00:51:10,710 --> 00:51:15,570
And now I'm way out on a limb
here, not a scientist at all,
765
00:51:15,570 --> 00:51:19,890
but I'm just trying to put things
together. You know, if, if in fact,
766
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:25,560
uh, you know, as we go
through the death process, uh,
767
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,590
we reach a more subtle
level of consciousness when,
768
00:51:29,310 --> 00:51:31,020
cause of course we're no longer if we,
769
00:51:31,020 --> 00:51:35,460
if we stopped being able to see and
hear and taste and smell and touch,
770
00:51:36,150 --> 00:51:40,170
then in a way we're less
distracted. Uh, but you know,
771
00:51:40,170 --> 00:51:43,110
if that happens, then, uh,
772
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:45,770
then our measuring device, you know,
773
00:51:45,770 --> 00:51:49,370
it's still our consciousness and if
our consciousness has been shaped,
774
00:51:50,860 --> 00:51:55,420
uh, by a culture that thinks, uh,
materialistically like when you're dead,
775
00:51:55,420 --> 00:51:58,070
that's it. You know, you
are your body. That's it.
776
00:51:58,940 --> 00:52:03,710
Then it could be that that is also
creating that reality. Whereas,
777
00:52:03,770 --> 00:52:07,190
whereas if in fact, uh, uh,
778
00:52:07,220 --> 00:52:12,030
you have a kind of deep
assumption, right, that, uh,
779
00:52:13,230 --> 00:52:18,190
uh, that there is some continuity.
Well, maybe if you're a practitioner,
780
00:52:18,190 --> 00:52:20,080
then you have a deep,
781
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,490
deep practice based on years and years
of concentration on exactly what the
782
00:52:24,490 --> 00:52:29,000
continuity looks like. Yeah. Then
that could be outcome determinative.
783
00:52:30,410 --> 00:52:35,370
Uh, you know, uh, uh, Michael Lockwood,
784
00:52:35,490 --> 00:52:40,060
who was a, a philosopher of science,
785
00:52:40,990 --> 00:52:41,823
uh,
786
00:52:42,090 --> 00:52:47,090
calls this the preferred basis
problem in quantum mechanics.
787
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:52,480
That why is it that certain States seem
to be associated with certain other
788
00:52:53,630 --> 00:52:58,010
States? And, and he talks about the
mathematics of it and the vectors,
789
00:52:58,100 --> 00:53:00,260
et cetera, which is frankly beyond me,
790
00:53:01,130 --> 00:53:03,560
a boy in another life.
791
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:08,480
I'd love to come back and spend years
and years on mathematics and physics.
792
00:53:08,750 --> 00:53:11,270
Right? That's why we
need the collective. So,
793
00:53:11,390 --> 00:53:15,080
but he talks about that the
preferred basis of problems. So,
794
00:53:15,590 --> 00:53:19,970
so it could be that there's a connection
there that uh, which would mean not,
795
00:53:19,970 --> 00:53:22,650
not strictly from an idealist point
of view because I think it's more
796
00:53:22,650 --> 00:53:27,240
complicated than that, that if a
Christian and you really, really,
797
00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:32,070
really believe in heaven
or the other place,
798
00:53:33,690 --> 00:53:38,690
it could be that either
in your dying moments,
799
00:53:40,290 --> 00:53:45,290
in which time may seem
an eternity or beyond,
800
00:53:45,410 --> 00:53:50,410
that you may experience what
you expected to experience,
801
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:56,160
what your measuring device
was designed to experience.
802
00:53:56,470 --> 00:54:00,110
Hmm. So, so that's,
803
00:54:00,770 --> 00:54:02,300
so that's the, you know,
804
00:54:02,300 --> 00:54:06,630
one response to your question about that
ABC news story and then the story of
805
00:54:06,630 --> 00:54:09,980
her from Republic. What's,
806
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,600
what's most amazing to
me is that, you know,
807
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:17,580
mostly when you read the Republican
CC who pays attention to that.
808
00:54:17,970 --> 00:54:22,140
And yet it's the culmination
of the entire book,
809
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:28,200
the story of her and what he observed
in his near death experience about
810
00:54:28,700 --> 00:54:31,300
reincarnation. Right. Not to mention,
811
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:35,250
not to mention that the cosmos
that are described in the,
812
00:54:35,580 --> 00:54:40,260
and the story of earth. Yeah.
To a Buddhist. Sure. As hell.
813
00:54:40,260 --> 00:54:44,250
Sounds like a mandola. Right. So,
so you know, and then you know,
814
00:54:44,250 --> 00:54:48,660
these are these near death
experiences. You know, we had a, uh,
815
00:54:50,010 --> 00:54:52,590
in one of our classes, I think
it was be before your time,
816
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:57,880
but when we broke out into our
little groups, uh, she had been,
817
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:02,300
she was a, a woman in her
that time, probably around 60.
818
00:55:02,900 --> 00:55:07,900
And she had spent decades as both an
emergency room nurse and as a hospice
819
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:12,800
nurse. And she just mentioned
to her group, Oh yeah,
820
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:17,550
there were five or six times when, uh,
821
00:55:17,750 --> 00:55:21,120
someone flat lined and then, uh,
822
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:26,120
they describe what happened
in the operating room while
they were flat line from
823
00:55:26,170 --> 00:55:31,040
a position other than that in which
they were in physically. In other words,
824
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,100
as soon as, sometimes from the top
of the room looking down [inaudible].
825
00:55:34,210 --> 00:55:38,170
Now it's one thing when
you read a book and,
826
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:43,610
and some, you know, someone
who's studied this or, uh,
827
00:55:43,940 --> 00:55:48,650
you know, this is in the woo
genre, right? Says, Oh, yes,
828
00:55:48,650 --> 00:55:49,580
there's this experience, this,
829
00:55:49,700 --> 00:55:54,700
it's another when you have someone
right in front of you who is sober and
830
00:55:56,130 --> 00:56:00,530
grounded and looks you in
the eye and tells you this.
831
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:03,530
So yeah.
832
00:56:03,530 --> 00:56:08,300
So those are the kinds of things that
happen when you open up the space where
833
00:56:08,300 --> 00:56:13,300
people feel really okay to
explore emotionally safe
and when you shake up their
834
00:56:17,550 --> 00:56:22,550
intellectual foundations like happen
to you a little bit opening up these
835
00:56:24,180 --> 00:56:27,950
fountains of creativity. Hmm. I have a,
836
00:56:27,950 --> 00:56:32,490
I have two more questions before I
let you do the fate of your day. Um,
837
00:56:32,970 --> 00:56:34,770
and so I, I,
838
00:56:35,100 --> 00:56:37,230
if you're getting late, I'll
make them very, very quick.
839
00:56:37,650 --> 00:56:41,310
The first question I have
is if my reality is off,
840
00:56:41,310 --> 00:56:43,260
the nature of what I
ask is what I'm served.
841
00:56:43,710 --> 00:56:48,120
And if I also understand that the cycle
of reincarnation is essentially a cycle
842
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:51,870
of pain and misery to beat it, and the
end goal is to in fact, be alleviated
843
00:56:52,580 --> 00:56:53,840
from the chocolate off karma,
844
00:56:54,750 --> 00:56:58,950
then why don't I automatically
begin by believing if,
845
00:56:58,950 --> 00:57:01,060
if I have the, let's say,
846
00:57:01,060 --> 00:57:04,480
the slightest of influence
over my faith after death,
847
00:57:04,510 --> 00:57:09,200
why don't I start by believing
that I want to escape this reality?
848
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:13,020
Well, um,
849
00:57:13,110 --> 00:57:16,560
if your belief is centered around yourself
850
00:57:19,300 --> 00:57:21,670
and that's like a [inaudible]
[inaudible] awesome.
851
00:57:23,420 --> 00:57:28,420
Because if part of your belief
is I myself want to be liberated,
852
00:57:30,340 --> 00:57:35,340
then you've in a way constructed a
prison of yourself that will keep you,
853
00:57:36,340 --> 00:57:39,440
they will keep you in prison.
Because, because what,
854
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:44,310
what you're concerned
about is that when you die,
855
00:57:45,460 --> 00:57:50,020
uh, yourself won't be there. So
you're holding onto yourself,
856
00:57:50,510 --> 00:57:54,500
which, which you know, is the big
problem that Buddha tried to address.
857
00:57:55,130 --> 00:57:59,580
And his doctrine of, of
no self, meaning that yes,
858
00:57:59,580 --> 00:58:02,850
there's a self, here we are,
we definitely have selves. But,
859
00:58:03,090 --> 00:58:06,090
but ultimately if we really,
really look at it closely,
860
00:58:06,670 --> 00:58:11,470
no [inaudible] and, and
the realization of that,
861
00:58:11,620 --> 00:58:16,620
that there's no kind of overdone or
underdone self itself with a capital S and
862
00:58:16,900 --> 00:58:21,900
that therefore there's this deep
interconnection itself is liberation
863
00:58:23,730 --> 00:58:28,500
nowhere to go. It's okay. Right, right.
864
00:58:28,740 --> 00:58:33,550
Have you heard of the quantum suicide
experiment? No. So it's like the, it's,
865
00:58:33,550 --> 00:58:36,640
it's like a, it's like the cat in
the box experiment by shorting gun
866
00:58:36,830 --> 00:58:41,150
instead what we do is it's not the
cat. It's mean inside the box. Right.
867
00:58:41,180 --> 00:58:44,510
And that is a gun pointing at me that
doesn't attach to a quantum calculator
868
00:58:44,540 --> 00:58:47,930
that will fire once the
element goes, once the,
869
00:58:48,110 --> 00:58:50,960
the electron goes in a
particular direction. So well,
870
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:53,750
the general idea is that I'm sitting in
a box with a gun pointed to me and that
871
00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:56,180
is any, it's anybody's arm. Which of the
872
00:58:56,850 --> 00:59:00,950
which of the dons Ivan actually be
shot and be dead. But Don's out that,
873
00:59:01,620 --> 00:59:05,340
and this isn't, this isn't a sink.
Would you evidence many words, theory.
874
00:59:05,370 --> 00:59:07,170
What happen is that I,
875
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:11,430
my consciousness will branch out
infinitely into the space where I actually
876
00:59:11,430 --> 00:59:14,070
live. Because only what I can observe,
877
00:59:14,070 --> 00:59:17,910
only what I can experience in the quantum
domain is what is real. So in the,
878
00:59:17,910 --> 00:59:21,980
in all the, in all the case scenarios,
what I actually ended up, they
879
00:59:21,980 --> 00:59:25,350
never happened because my content has
branched off into that infinite loop.
880
00:59:25,370 --> 00:59:30,000
But I continue living and that serves
to become like, how would I say,
881
00:59:30,180 --> 00:59:30,660
um,
882
00:59:30,660 --> 00:59:35,520
a sharp socket to the general idea of
disgust that I can basically never die.
883
00:59:35,700 --> 00:59:39,990
If quantum physics is the predicament
of life, then I can never die.
884
00:59:40,350 --> 00:59:43,120
What do you have to say
about that? So, you know,
885
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:45,910
here is where my training is a lawyer.
886
00:59:49,670 --> 00:59:50,630
This, it said,
887
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:56,080
it strikes me as being a
little too coincidental.
888
00:59:57,110 --> 01:00:01,580
Gee, we've found a theory
under which we can never die.
889
01:00:01,670 --> 01:00:06,090
Oh, so yeah, we don't know. We
don't know the answer. You know?
890
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:11,300
And, and one thing we do know is
that given the history of science,
891
01:00:11,900 --> 01:00:14,390
quantum mechanics is not
the final answer either.
892
01:00:14,660 --> 01:00:18,980
It will be superseded by probably another
revolution. But it's what we have.
893
01:00:19,420 --> 01:00:23,980
And they're very interesting ways to look
at things from Everett's many worlds.
894
01:00:24,270 --> 01:00:27,670
So the variation of that,
that Michael Minsky and,
895
01:00:27,910 --> 01:00:32,210
and Lockwood talk about the many
minds theory, you know, it's a lot.
896
01:00:32,430 --> 01:00:36,480
It's a lot of fun. Oh,
for one thing. But also,
897
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:42,080
uh, you know, in, in this experiment
that you've described to me,
898
01:00:42,860 --> 01:00:47,420
uh, you know, once again, we have
such a premium put on this self,
899
01:00:49,950 --> 01:00:53,850
you know, if a, you know,
900
01:00:53,850 --> 01:00:58,580
as my wife said to me
this morning, Jan said,
901
01:00:59,900 --> 01:01:02,810
you know, when it's your time,
902
01:01:02,870 --> 01:01:06,560
it's your time and it's okay.
It's just the way it is.
903
01:01:08,010 --> 01:01:11,100
There's some very, very
deep wisdom there that even,
904
01:01:11,250 --> 01:01:13,830
even with all my philosophy,
905
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:16,830
I bet how down to okay
906
01:01:19,270 --> 01:01:23,900
doesn't mean, doesn't mean what we want
doesn't mean we'll stop trying. Right?
907
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:24,890
Right.
908
01:01:24,890 --> 01:01:29,890
Because there are many wonderful things
to be found and maybe you may or all of
909
01:01:31,290 --> 01:01:34,560
this together may learn something, right?
910
01:01:35,330 --> 01:01:39,950
That we can use, that we can use
to make this world a better place.
911
01:01:39,980 --> 01:01:40,940
Because, you know,
912
01:01:41,450 --> 01:01:45,980
despite the uncertainties of what
comes after this world for us,
913
01:01:46,670 --> 01:01:48,470
here we are in this world.
914
01:01:48,590 --> 01:01:52,820
So I love what you're doing
in spreading, you know,
915
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:57,070
[inaudible] spreading the message
of questioning. All right.
916
01:01:57,070 --> 01:02:00,520
And so I thank you so much.
It's been such a pleasure. No,
917
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:01,930
the pleasure's all been mined. Professor.
918
01:02:01,930 --> 01:02:06,040
Thank you so much for the class
for four really awesome months.
919
01:02:06,050 --> 01:02:07,840
And I don't use the word
awesome often enough.
920
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,890
I'm very careful to not be graded
beyond the level that it deserves for,
921
01:02:11,890 --> 01:02:14,500
for an awesome four months last
semester, and for this conversation.
922
01:02:14,500 --> 01:02:19,380
This has been entirely my pleasure.
Mine too. Thank you so much. Take care.
923
01:02:19,530 --> 01:02:20,730
Thank you. Bye.